Report 1573
Report #1573 Skillset: Wicca Skill: Toadcurse Org: Moondancers Status: Completed Dec 2016 Furies' Decision: Solution 3. Problem: Toadcurse is an 8p ability that will strip the target of it's defenses and turns it into a defenseless toad, which can in theory hop around and run away, though in a real combat scenario never will. However, for the wiccan causing the toadcurse, it is always rather dissatisfactory, as despite the kill being almost always ensured, the wiccan will never get the credit/blame for it, as an ally or even an enemy will always stomp the toad instead. 6 R: 9 Solution #1: Change Toadcurse to the wiccan automatically stomping the toad after toad has been cast. R: 5 Solution #2: Do instakill only if target is below 33% mana. Remove the stun from kissing toads. Below 50% mana, old usage is retained. R: 0 Solution #3: Change the one credited for the kill as the wiccan toadcursing and not the stomper. (Could be combined with Solution 2) Player Comments: ---on 11/29 @ 23:02 writes: What about something like this - if you toad someone at <50% mana, it functions as it does currently (though maybe remove the stun on kissing toads) and if the target is even lower, like <33% or even <25% mana, it instantly kills the target? ---on 11/30 @ 00:57 writes: I prefer solution 1. ---on 11/30 @ 01:14 writes: I am not partial to this either way. Though I will add, I don't think it is needed as kill stealing is an issue in groups for everyone and 1vs1 it wouldn't matter. ---on 11/30 @ 01:16 writes: If it does go through as a straight instakill though, I think it should be lowered to 33% mana as 50% mana is not hard to establish in groups. ---on 11/30 @ 03:54 writes: Important to consider that removing the toad phase also removes the ability to KISS TOAD. ---on 11/30 @ 07:17 writes: Alternatively we could change the kill line to credit the toadcursing wiccan instead? ---on 11/30 @ 09:35 writes: I changed the solutions to reflect the suggestions of Synkarin and Raeri. @demartel your "kill stealing is everybody's problem comment." I am not aware of any other mechanic that almost guarantees that your kill is stolen. ---on 11/30 @ 16:08 writes: Anyone who has had their target die while deathsonging them, anyone who has had their target die while chasming them, anyone who has had their target die when decapitating them, and so on... Everyone has felt the "you stole my kill" vibe. Toadcurse is not an instakill, it never has been. The "instakill" is the Stomp. Toadcurse is like inquisition, in that it strips the defs and stuns so you can perform the actual instakill. The issue is that anyone can stomp and "killsteal". I personally don't see this as an issue, since it is more important to kill the target than who killed the target, but I can understand the emotional investment in never getting your own kill, which is why I am on the fence on this report. I like Raeri's suggestion, personally, just attribute the kill to the person who made the Toad. i.e Sidd has been stomped upon due to Aeldra's toadcurse. I am sure the admins can come up with something more flashy though. ---on 11/30 @ 16:24 writes: Thinking on it more, Raeri's solution is probably the best way to go if anything needs to change. As I said, Toadcurse is not an instakill or implied to be one, and even if an instant stomp was given it would not gaurantee a kill as it is 100% blunt damage. Anyone at the upper tier will have a high enough blunt resistance that it will take 2 stomps to kill them, meaning this change will solve little for the Wiccan community. ---on 11/30 @ 19:48 writes: I disagree with the notion that this isn't meant to be an instakill. It is absolutely an instakill, even if the actual instakilling isn't at the 50% mana threshold, with Wiccan, Moon and Night all designed towards achieving the condition for this skill. ---on 11/30 @ 23:10 writes: Toading is certainly the kill method, but it's a 'instakill' in the strictest sense. There isn't really any point in arguing those semantics. It's been reported before to have the toader get the credit for the kill, and they went with another solution (report 808). I support solution 2 and 3. It keeps the flavour of the skill while solving the problem ---on 12/1 @ 00:23 writes: Falmiis: You can "disagree with the notion" all you want, but that's literally been exactly what they have said to us over the years. I mean, it's not like Toadcurse hasn't functioned like this since the game came out, and this *exact same problem* has been submitted to them probably twenty or more times by now. The reason it still functions this way is because Toadcurse is not designed to be an instakill (just like Inquisition is not an instakill). It is an ability that puts the target in the position to be murdered. Of these, I prefer solution 3 still. ---on 12/1 @ 06:38 writes: Solution 2 or 3, but this has been envoyed before. ---on 12/1 @ 15:17 writes: What is the rationale behind keeping a non-direct instakill like toad in place when other classes have direct instakills under the same (or similar) conditions, like Absolve? I think that historically the power of succumb and access to aeonlocks that classes like Celestines didn't have was the reason... but those aren't really the case anymore. In other words, the original design on a class like Wiccan that is so old isn't necessarily very important. Any of the solutions would be fine, I very much doubt any of them would dramatically change Wiccan strategies or kills while neatly solving the problem posed. ---on 12/1 @ 22:19 writes: The official rationale is that *dancers tend to have more passive drain, so it's easier to hit 50%. I think that is still the case, what with fae, pooka, etc. It was never about the active mana draining skills, it was about combining their passive additions on top of that. ---on 12/1 @ 23:58 writes: MD's are still the stronger mana draining class, especially with new succumb. ---on 12/2 @ 14:57 writes: Due to the ramp up of stun, toadcurse is definitely an instakill for all practical purposes. Previously you could actually run away for a bit (and hilariously at one point you could climb trees as a toad) but I think that's practically impossible now even solo. I don't think inquisition is a valid comparison because you can't literally newbie kick someone to death who has been inquisitioned, you actually need another loaded instakill (like soulless) to do it. All that being said the only way I can think of to resolve the kill credit concern, in a way which has not been reported and rejected before, would be to actually nerf the skill a bit. You could make stomp a delayed action where wiccans have less of a delay and allow a successful toadcurse to automatically begin that delayed stomp. Then it would be impossible for someone else to trigger stomp and get the kill first, the toadcurser would always receive credit unless the delay was made too long and the enemy team would get an opportunity to kiss the toad. Right now even if someone did want to kiss the toad they are racing against a lot of stomp triggers to do so. ---on 12/3 @ 03:27 writes: Toad definitely has been buffed over the years due to the repeated (and justified, I feel) complaints by toaders. If the admin aren't amenable to solutions 1 or 3 (1 because they rather it still have the current mechanics of possibly toad-hopping away, or 3 because it can't be coded etc), then 2 is actually a very good idea that is something new from what previous reports have suggested. I support any of the three solutions, either way. ---on 12/3 @ 14:41 writes: If solution 2 ends up being accepted, maybe the stun from being toaded should be removed all together from the 50% level. This way you can still toad, but there's a definitey advantage to doing further drain. ---on 12/3 @ 15:20 writes: I prefer keeping Toad as is and just giving kill credit to the Wiccan. It's the simplest and most direct solution. If Toad mechanics are an issue to be addressed, then I'd like to see an edit of the problem statement. ---on 12/6 @ 03:33 writes: I don't think it really makes a functional difference (as noted by others) whether or not it kills you instantly or damn near always kills you 3s later. If it's a big issue, go with solution 3 plus the "enhanced" true instakill at a more difficult threshold for bonus points. ---on 12/18 @ 16:13 writes: Full support for solution 3, since I've said it nearly every time it's come up in outside discussion and somehow missed this report coming up to say it again.